Curse

Chicken Ftw · Nov 27, 2006, 01:48 AM // 01:48

I don't PUG for the same reason I don't RA - I dislike being in a random group of people whose skill levels will be questionable at best. Sure, there's the occasional good group, but they're somewhat rare. It's not a hard choice to make between guildies and PUGs, when the first is guaranteed to be good and the latter's chances of being decent are slim.

In short, why are PUGs dying out? It's simple, really. People are finding the truth in the statement Guildies/Friends > Heroes/Henches >>> PUGs.

Rera · Nov 27, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overnite

Continuing the Warcraft 3 example: everyone who has ever played this game knows that there isn't much difference in tactics used by the regular players and the top-of-the-ladder professionals. So, there has to be something that separates the "pros" from the newbs- skill.

The interesting point here is that, if we go by your assumption that the tactics used by regular players and pros is essentially equal (which I don't agree with, but anyway), the difference between the pro players and the regular players is not at all similar to the difference between pro players and AI. Specifically, the difference between good and bad players is execution, whereas the difference between good players and AI is knowledge. This makes your previous comparison to AI rather curious, since it's now clear that it was irrelevant to the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overnite

That's the difference between Warcraft and Guild Wars- practice doesn't make you better. The only thing that separates the veteran from a newb is their knowledge of the game. As I've said before, an average battle.net player should have no problems defeating several computer players at once, while people who have just started playing will get owned while battling only one AI player. So, logically a "skilled" Guild Wars player should be able to achieve similar things, for example: he should be able to beat Ring of Fire mission with only 3 henchmen. Can he ?

Practice does make you better. To claim otherwise means either 1) you haven't played long enough to realize it, or 2) you are simply saying this to be argumentative.

The difference between your average battle.net player and your noob can also be one of knowledge. The noob does not have a solid grasp of game concepts, doesn't understand all of the tactics, doesn't know the strengths and weaknesses of all of the units, doesn't understand efficient resourcing, army positioning, etc.

Your analogy is flawed. You can solo many areas of the game - does it make you skilled? Again, the build is the key in that situation - knowledge - which you've said is not skill.

My feeling here is that we're essentially arguing over semantics. You would like to divide "good playing" into two distinct entities: "knowledge" and "skill", whereas I believe that the two are related.

Why? Consider fighting games. These are widely considered to be games of "skill". This may be true at the intermediate level: the better players are the ones that can execute the combos most consistently, react the fastest to situations, etc. But at the highest levels of play, everyone executes pretty much flawlessly. Execution is no longer the difference. The competition reverts to one of knowledge and experience. Are you familiar with all of the setups and mindgames for this match? Do you know how to escape from certain traps? Do you know all of the counters to all of your opponent's moves and strategies?

More knowledge results in better execution and ultimately better playing. I don't find it useful to try and divide things into being exclusively "knowledge" or "skill".

And in any case, this is all going OT, so I'm going to stop here.

MasterThrawn · Nov 27, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

I really prefer to play with others for the most part, but I must admit I am leaning more and more towards using Heroes for most missions. I don't know - the last few PUG's I ran with were insanely bad. I don't just mean unskilled - people not listening to one another - ele who would agro everything and than run back to the group. Yeah - kind of thinking Olias and Koss and Dunkoro would be better.

Tommy · Nov 27, 2006, 04:14 PM // 16:14

the only reason i bought NF is for the Heroes. I dont like to play with pugs. The reason i dont play with pugs is that i dont know them, i dont know if they are good or not. maybe they are good, but i dont wanna waste my time knowing them.I dont make friends in mmorph. cuz i dont know who they are in rl

so no pugs for me

as for Heroes. i know who they are, what skills they got and how they will use their skills. i have complete control over them. and they are always avaiable. Therefore.
IMAO Hero>Pugs. I beat NF with heroes. done all the missions with heroes except gate of madness. I am sorry but i have seen too many bs pugs in game. i got sick of them

that is why i prefer heroes over pugs.

Cebe · Nov 27, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

I don'd ming playing in a PuG when the PuG is good. This is probably an obvious thing to say but there are two types, there is a good PuG, who sorts things out rationally, has a good attitude towards the game and knows how to fight as part of a team. The second is the type of PuG that doesn't say a word other than "hi", "rdy?" and "gg" (the third is only if we win). I have now stopped going with a PuG who doesn't respond in the mission town. There is NOTHING worse than asking question after question only to be ignored. This, to me, is an indicator as to whether I should stick with them or leave the group and save myself some time.

On the whole I am sorry to say I favour Heroes and Hench but there have certainly been some missions I have done in Nightfall when we have actually had a knowledgeable, astute team leader who directed the team and called targets etc.. This sort of player is who I like to play with...If the team will take anyone (eg. ending up with 5 dervishes all saying "we need 2 m0nkz0rz") or if it looks like the team is going to be made up of Hobos I don't want to know

labsenpai · Nov 27, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

I'm glad that there are levels to the Mission Rewards; you can typically find a PuG starting for Masters just about everywhere. Furthermore, the game structures for Factions & Nightfall hinder some of the Mission shortcutting that made certain Ch.1 areas (Maguuma) vacant.

Folks that despise PuGs can rationalize that Heroes are more reliable gaming companions. All I know is that I didn't buy GW to study the intricacies of its programmed polygons. Sometimes the less you know, the more you smile.

Jetdoc · Nov 27, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overnite

So, logically a "skilled" Guild Wars player should be able to achieve similar things, for example: he should be able to beat Ring of Fire mission with only 3 henchmen. Can he ?

I've done Ring of Fire with just me and a Monk henchmen (I'm really close to doing it solo), so I'm pretty sure that many skilled players would be able to do so with enough patience.

So, in short..."Yes!"

Darkobra · Nov 27, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

I don't think that it's a lack of knowledge that annoy people in a PUG, but just out and out stupidity.

Scenario 1: A guy hasn't a clue what to do in the mission. So INSTEAD of charging into a group of enemies, pulling 3 MORE groups of enemies and getting every one KILLED, he asks what to do. The people take the time to help him. They do the mission with a few mistakes, but get through it fine.

Scenario 2: A guy hasn't a clue what he's doing. He pretends he does and states that he's in a rank 20 guild, he's rank 15 and he's been playing the game for 20 years. He runs into a group, dies and rage quits, blaming the monks.

Now when I mention PUG, what is the first one you think of?

lancer_man · Nov 27, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

I have not been playing GW for very long, and because I do not get to play that often I know I am not very skilled. I am sure I do a lot of stupid things and might not understand all the details of how the game works.

While I have met a lot of players who have been helpful and patient with people like me, there a quite a few who have made finding groups less than enjoyable. I have been spending less time in PUGs mostly because of the headache that many "experienced" players can cause, and finding other people like me can take time.

While I have not had a chance to play NF yet (like I said I don't get to play as often as I like), the idea of Heros seems to be created for the casual gamers like myself who dislike spending time trying to find fun groups.

Clawdius_Talonious · Nov 27, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Was the day of the PUG really ever here? I mean, the chances of getting a PUG that was half way decent are always low. The only PUG I ever felt was worth my time to join was in Abbadon's Gate, less than 72 hours after it came out. Other than that I'll sometimes just accept someone into my group, knowing that one person can't damage my chances for completion of the mission. Other times I've formed PUGs, but I rarely join them (and never feel like we're assured victory, more like we're assured at least one RQ or idler).

Pale Valsharess · Nov 27, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancer_man

While I have not had a chance to play NF yet (like I said I don't get to play as often as I like), the idea of Heros seems to be created for the casual gamers like myself who dislike spending time trying to find fun groups.

I agree. It's a headache to find some good group, without name calling ("noob!") or just aggroing every thing that moves with a fake confidence of a "leet" player. I have a guild that has only people I know in real life, casual players that can play maybe once or two a week and even more. They don't read this forum or guildwiki like me, so they probably will prefer not to join PUGs because they have no knowledge of "inner lingo", and if they did try it - probably felt like fools. It's highly intimidating and not friendly environment. Henchies and heroes sound like perfect solution.

p.s If anyone of you need help, you can PM me when I am online (put me on friends list).

Lord Oranos · Nov 27, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Funny, when I pug, I get occasional bad pugs, but never like the ones people always post, sounding like the exact same story over and over again. Either someones overreacting, or its ego's conflicting. I pugged yesterday to cap some elites, died at first, but we adjusted and it was fine. Worst pug I had STILL beat the mission, and it was 5 of us at Hell's Precipice, one monk had to go, two quit, I was the only monk. Honestly, dont give up on pugs when you have one bad experience.

Really, Id rather play with people than heroes, but since they have been released Ive seen ness lfg's floating around. I miss the social part of this game in pve.

erfweiss · Nov 27, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

I help out a lot in PvE, but the biggest part that drives me crazy is the lack of communication in the PUG. Just got offline after bringing my rit thru consulate docks. I've done this mission 6 times now (11 chars, moving them all along). I guess people don't understand that when you have two healers (restore rit and a lvl 14 dunk), you don't rush the entire thing. Also, in reference to point one: if you outrun the healers, don't be a sin.

That drives me nuts...no recharge, run from the healers. Grrr....at least I know the heros won't rush it, unless I tell them to.

Clawdius_Talonious · Nov 27, 2006, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by erfweiss

I help out a lot in PvE, but the biggest part that drives me crazy is the lack of communication in the PUG. Just got offline after bringing my rit thru consulate docks. I've done this mission 6 times now (11 chars, moving them all along). I guess people don't understand that when you have two healers (restore rit and a lvl 14 dunk), you don't rush the entire thing. Also, in reference to point one: if you outrun the healers, don't be a sin.

That drives me nuts...no recharge, run from the healers. Grrr....at least I know the heros won't rush it, unless I tell them to.

What's funny is rushing is no longer necessary except in a very small number of Nightfall missions. People got used to it in Factions because of the time limits, but it was annoying then too. I was in a group that got linked with a "masters" tyrian group. Every five seconds one of them was saying "how much time do we have left" (and the Ws were passing monster spawns leaving them to the monks and MMs to have to kill themselves, slowing us down further) etc etc etc. When all was said and done, we got Experts, missed Masters by less than two minutes. I did the calculations and it was the exact amount of time it takes to say "how long?" three hundred and fifty two billion times.

saphir · Nov 27, 2006, 10:15 PM // 22:15

I love PUG's!

I finished and got masters for all 3 NF torment missions w/ the first pug I joined. In the mission before abbadon's we had one young warrior who thought he was being funny by not following instructions.. he tended to die a lot. We monks don't tolerate fools. I'll keep an idiot war alive if he's holding the line and keeping us casters from certain death, but not if he runs off to aggro, or runs away like a coward to watch his teammates go down.

Anyway, a working masters pug almost always requires at least one person who knows the bonuses and which direction to go.
My guild/alliance has repeatedly tried some of the missions only to repeatedly fail because they either don't know where to go, can't agree, or are just don't have the best class combinations.

Even though I'm in a great guild now, I still see most alliance/guild groups as worse than one of your regular pug groups. The thing w/ guild groups is that they're obliged to accept anyone from the guild/alliance who wants to do the mission and so often makes compromises in the party makeup. Then often even the worst or most annoying players are tolerated because they are a guild or alliance member. Fortunately I'm in a good guild now.. whew.. however, I've helped out my guildies countless times to help them finish the torment missions, and they've failed countless times due to confusion, crappy second monks or just general disorganization. It's really no worse than a disorganized pug though. Unfortunately I don't know the missions well enough to tell them which way to go

But pugging-wise, I think it's generally much easier to pug when you're a monk simply because if you're a good monk you can carry even the worst pugs thru to the end.

Clawdius_Talonious · Nov 27, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by saphir

But pugging-wise, I think it's generally much easier to pug when you're a monk simply because if you're a good monk you can carry even the worst pugs thru to the end.

QFT, I've carried a group through entire missions, although it was quite a chore. Many of these groups had another monk in them, that wasn't even healing themselves well, much less anyone else.

Once I was in a group in the Ring of Fire, we got almost to the end of the back way (the other monk quit at the very begining, possibly err=7'd, back way is such a pain but they wanted to cap, front way is cake) and then they spotted the boss they wanted to cap from... I pinged my energy, because I was running on empty, but of course they ignored me and got themselves killed. Running through Lava despite your monk having no energy + fighting an ele boss = GG

Not much you can do when what is left of your group turns into six Leeroy Jenkins, but I know what you mean about PUGing as a monk. Nevertheless I would rather hero/hench than PUG, because the AI actually listens to you.

Age · Nov 27, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

I totally disagree with this as I still and will use PuGs during missions and those of you who said they beat it except the last two missions you used a PuGs.I do agree with what gobla said as Monk player my self I don't see the heros doing better than real Monks that are good.The coop missions are designed to train you how to cooperate in GvG match setting it was the HoH as well.That is why you call target set your builds up to match those of the needs of the team eg no P/B Rangers or complete Nukers bring traps and wards.

Antheus · Nov 28, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clawdius_Talonious

Not much you can do when what is left of your group turns into six Leeroy Jenkins, but I know what you mean about PUGing as a monk. Nevertheless I would rather hero/hench than PUG, because the AI actually listens to you.

Monk is the first character to get protector for me.

And we do it my way, or no way.

Then I let the group decide whether they want to kick the monk or listen.

It's a bit annoying, but at least as a monk you're always in demand, and can afford to make a few demands. The upside is, the PUG always gets masters/bonus this way almost guaranteed.

Especially since I find that as monk AI really sucks for killing. For some reason, it's just slow and inneficient, compared to just about any PUG.

Nexus Icon · Nov 28, 2006, 07:55 AM // 07:55

The best thing about heroes for me is the fact that you don't have to put up with elitist, egocentric, snot-nosed monks any more.
Monks have enjoyed a priviledged position in this game for far too long now, and it has created an un-even balance of power amongst classes, with monks using threats to maintain control over parties.
Now if I'm leading a PUG, any monk who wants to join had better know their stuff and be polite about it, otherwise they'll be out on their arses.
With all of the skills unlocked, my hero monks perform better than 99.9% of the PUG monks out there. This means I can put together a team fairly quickly without the stress of having to pander to some primadonna in order to get moving.
Utter bliss I tells ya.

Fiddlers Black · Nov 28, 2006, 08:04 AM // 08:04

the bitching monks started appearing soon after the leeroy warrior ... so consider why monks get angry in the first place before you start calling them primadonnas